Here’s my conversation with Chat GPT asking hard questions that were inspired by today’s conversation with family.

The video below was created by Google’s AI NotebookLM.

Messiah or False Prophet? The Jewish and Christian Debate Over Jesus

Why do orthodox jews believe Jesus isn’t the messiah?

1. Messianic Prophecies Unfulfilled

• One of the strongest Jewish objections is that Jesus did not fulfill the major messianic prophecies outlined in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). Isaiah 2:4, which speaks of the end of war and universal peace, is one example.
• Other key prophecies the Messiah is expected to fulfill upon arrival (not in a “second coming”) include:
  • Building the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
  • Gathering all Jews back to Israel (Isaiah 11:12)
  • Ushering in world peace (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)
  • Spreading universal knowledge of God (Zechariah 14:9)
• The Jewish argument is that the Messiah is not supposed to die before completing these missions.

2. No Concept of a “Second Coming” in Judaism

• The idea of a “Second Coming” is a Christian response to the fact that Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies.
• In Jewish thought, the Messiah is a one-time figure who accomplishes his mission within his lifetime.

3. Lineage from David

• The Messiah must be a direct patrilineal descendant of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-16).
• Jewish lineage is traditionally passed through the father, not through adoption or legal status.
• Since Jesus is claimed to be born of a virgin (meaning Joseph was not his biological father), this creates a contradiction.
• Even if Joseph were the biological father, the Christian genealogy presents further issues (e.g., different genealogies in Matthew and Luke, and the curse on Jeconiah in Jeremiah 22:30).

4. The Messiah is Not Divine

• Judaism maintains strict monotheism: God is One and indivisible (Deuteronomy 6:4 – “Shema Yisrael”).
• The Jewish Messiah is expected to be a fully human political leader, not a divine being or “God in the flesh.”
• The idea of Jesus being both human and divine is a fundamental theological conflict with Jewish beliefs.

5. Sin and Atonement

• Christianity teaches that Jesus’ death atones for sin.
• Judaism teaches that atonement comes through repentance (Teshuva), prayer, and good deeds, not human sacrifice (Hosea 6:6, Ezekiel 18:21-23).
• The Torah (Deuteronomy 24:16) explicitly states that no one can die for another person’s sins.

6. Jewish View of the Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53)

• Christians interpret Isaiah 53 as a prophecy about Jesus.
• Jewish interpretations generally see it as referring to Israel as a nation, which has suffered on behalf of the world.

Summary

Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah because:

1. He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2. The concept of a “Second Coming” is foreign to Judaism.
3. His lineage does not meet the Davidic requirement.
4. The Messiah is not supposed to be divine.
5. Atonement does not require a human sacrifice.
6. Prophecies like Isaiah 53 are interpreted differently.

How and why are jews suffering on behalf of the world?

The idea that Jews suffer on behalf of the world is primarily derived from the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 and other related passages in the Hebrew Bible.

Unlike the Christian view that sees this chapter as referring to Jesus, Jewish tradition generally interprets the “Suffering Servant” as the nation of Israel. Here’s the reasoning behind this view:

1. Isaiah 53 in Context: The “Suffering Servant” as Israel

• Isaiah 53 is part of a larger section (Isaiah 40–55) where the term “servant of God” often refers to the nation of Israel (e.g., Isaiah 41:8-9, Isaiah 44:1-2).
• Isaiah repeatedly calls Israel God’s “servant” chosen to bring light to the nations (Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 49:3-6).
• The Jewish interpretation sees the suffering in Isaiah 53 as referring to the collective suffering of the Jewish people throughout history due to oppression, persecution, and exile.

2. Why Is Israel Seen as Suffering for the World?

• A Nation That Bears Injustice: Jews have historically been persecuted (e.g., Babylonian exile, Roman destruction of the Temple, expulsions from European countries, pogroms, the Holocaust). This suffering is seen as unjust but part of a divine mission.
• A Light to the Nations: Isaiah 42:6 and Isaiah 49:6 describe Israel as a “light to the nations”, meaning they are supposed to lead the world toward morality, justice, and ethical monotheism.
• Exile and Redemption: The Jewish people’s suffering is sometimes viewed as bringing awareness of God’s justice and inspiring humanity to strive for righteousness.
• Theological View: Some rabbinic traditions teach that Israel’s suffering serves as a means of purification, both for themselves and indirectly for the world.

3. Historical and Theological Perspectives

Rabbinic Perspective

• The Talmud (Berakhot 5a) states that suffering can be a test or a way to atone for sins.
• Some rabbinic sources (like Midrash Tanchuma) suggest that when Jews endure hardship, it can help bring divine blessings to the world.

Kabbalistic (Mystical) View

• Kabbalah teaches that Jews have a special spiritual responsibility in repairing the world (Tikkun Olam).
• Their suffering is sometimes seen as absorbing negative spiritual forces and refining the world’s spiritual energy.

Historical Experience

• Throughout history, Jews have been disproportionately blamed for society’s problems, yet their ethical teachings have influenced global moral progress (e.g., concepts like justice, human dignity, charity, and monotheism).
• Despite persecution, Jewish survival and contributions to science, ethics, and culture have helped shape civilizations.

4. Is This a Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement?

• No. Unlike Christianity, which teaches that Jesus died for humanity’s sins, Judaism does not believe that Jewish suffering literally atones for others’ sins.
• Instead, suffering is seen as a byproduct of the Jewish mission to bring moral and ethical awareness to the world.

5. Connection to Modern Jewish Thought

• Many Jews today interpret “suffering for the world” metaphorically, emphasizing:
  • Social justice (helping others through activism, philanthropy).
  • Education and ethical leadership (influencing society with Jewish values).
  • Tikkun Olam (healing the world by making it a better place).

Conclusion

Jews are seen as suffering on behalf of the world because:

1. The Hebrew Bible (especially Isaiah) describes Israel as God’s “servant” who suffers injustice.
2. Their suffering is historically linked to their role in spreading ethical monotheism.
3. Rabbinic and mystical traditions view Jewish suffering as refining humanity and inspiring righteousness.
4. Unlike Christian doctrine, Jewish suffering does not “pay for” others’ sins but serves as a moral and spiritual example.

Would you like to explore this idea further?

I recall that the jews broke a covenant with God?

Yes, in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), there are multiple instances where the Israelites (the Jewish people) are described as breaking their covenant with God. However, this does not mean the covenant was permanently nullified—Jewish theology generally holds that God remains in a covenantal relationship with Israel, despite periods of disobedience.

Here’s how it plays out:

1. What is the Covenant?

• The Jewish people are bound to God through two major covenants:
  1. The Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 12, 15, 17) – God promises Abraham that his descendants will be a great nation and inherit the land of Israel.
  2. The Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 19-24) – Given at Mount Sinai, where Israel agrees to follow God’s Torah (Law) in exchange for divine protection and blessing.

2. Breaking the Covenant: Examples in the Bible

Throughout the Tanakh, there are multiple instances where Israel is depicted as violating their covenant by worshiping idols, disobeying the Torah, and failing to uphold justice. Here are a few key examples:

A. The Golden Calf Incident (Exodus 32)

• While Moses is on Mount Sinai receiving the Torah, the Israelites create a golden calf and worship it.
• This is seen as a direct violation of the first commandment (“You shall have no other gods before Me” – Exodus 20:3).
• God is angered, but Moses intercedes, and Israel is given a chance to repent.

B. The Sin of the Spies (Numbers 13-14)

• When the 12 spies return from scouting the Land of Canaan, 10 of them report that conquering the land is impossible.
• The people lose faith in God and complain about returning to Egypt.
• As punishment, God decrees that the entire generation (except Joshua and Caleb) will die in the wilderness and not enter the Promised Land.

C. Idolatry and the First Temple’s Destruction (Jeremiah, Ezekiel, 2 Kings)

• The Israelites repeatedly turn to idol worship and corruption.
• Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel warn them that breaking the covenant will lead to exile.
• Eventually, the Babylonians destroy the First Temple in 586 BCE, leading to the Babylonian Exile.

D. The Second Temple’s Destruction (70 CE)

• The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, which many Jewish thinkers saw as a punishment for internal divisions and straying from God’s ways.

3. Was the Covenant Permanently Broken?

No. While Israel’s disobedience led to consequences (exile, suffering, loss of divine protection), the Torah and Prophets emphasize that the covenant is eternal and will ultimately be restored.

A. Conditional vs. Unconditional Aspects

• The Mosaic Covenant is conditional—obedience brings blessings, disobedience brings exile (Deuteronomy 28).
• The Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are seen as unconditional—God promises that Israel and David’s lineage will never be permanently rejected (Genesis 17:7, 2 Samuel 7:12-16).

B. Promise of Restoration

• Leviticus 26:44-45 – Even when Israel is punished, God does not break His covenant.
• Jeremiah 31:31-34 – A prophecy of a “new covenant” (renewal of the Torah), not a replacement.
• Ezekiel 37:21-28 – A vision of Israel being reunited and the Messianic Age.

4. Christian vs. Jewish Interpretations

• Christianity often interprets Israel’s failure to keep the covenant as leading to a “New Covenant” through Jesus.
• Judaism rejects this and holds that Israel remains God’s chosen people, and the Torah remains binding.
• The Messianic Age (from a Jewish perspective) will be the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant.

Conclusion

Yes, the Jewish people have broken the covenant many times in biblical history, but the covenant was never permanently revoked. Instead, exile and suffering are seen as divine discipline, with an eventual promise of national restoration.

Would you like to dive into a specific passage or a different angle on this?

I recall one jew saying that Jesus misused the secrets of kabbalah and then was eventually executed for sedition.

Yes, there are some Jewish traditions, particularly in the Talmud and Kabbalistic literature, that suggest alternative explanations for Jesus’ life and death.

These accounts, while not part of mainstream Christian narratives, offer a Jewish perspective on why Jesus was rejected by Jewish authorities and what he may have been involved in.

1. Jesus and the Misuse of Kabbalah

• Some Jewish mystical traditions (particularly from later Kabbalistic sources) suggest that Jesus (often referred to as “Yeshu” in rabbinic texts) learned secret mystical teachings but misused them.
• The idea is that he may have studied advanced Jewish esoteric knowledge but applied it in ways that violated Jewish law, leading to his downfall.
• Kabbalah teaches that divine wisdom and mystical knowledge can be powerful, but if used improperly, it can be dangerous or lead to heresy.

A. Learning the “Ineffable Name”

• One legend (from medieval Jewish texts) suggests that Jesus learned the Ineffable Name of God (Shem HaMephorash), which is a sacred and powerful name of God known only to the highest Jewish sages.
• According to this legend, Jesus supposedly used this knowledge to perform miracles, but he did so outside of proper rabbinic authority, which led to his rejection.
• Jewish sages strongly opposed revealing divine names or mystical teachings to the public without the proper ethical and spiritual preparation.

B. Jesus as a False Messiah

• The mainstream Pharisaic (later Rabbinic) perspective was that the true Messiah would fulfill the messianic prophecies within his lifetime (world peace, rebuilding the Temple, etc.).
• Jesus’ claims were seen as a misuse of Jewish messianic expectations and a distortion of Torah teachings.

2. Jesus’ Execution for Sedition

• From a historical perspective, Jesus was executed by the Romans, not the Jews.
• The Gospels themselves record that Jesus was crucified under the order of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor.
• Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution, typically reserved for rebels, political threats, and those accused of sedition (rebellion against the Roman Empire).

A. Jesus and the Charge of Sedition

• Some Jewish sources, like the Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), mention a figure named “Yeshu” (often identified with Jesus) who was executed for leading people astray.
• This passage describes Jesus as being tried and executed before Passover for practicing “sorcery” and leading Israel into apostasy.
• Roman records (such as the writings of Tacitus) confirm that Jesus was put to death under Pilate, which aligns with the charge of political sedition rather than a purely religious crime.

B. The Political Context

• During Jesus’ time, many Jews were expecting a military Messiah to liberate them from Roman rule.
• Some of Jesus’ statements, such as referring to himself as the “King of the Jews,” could have been seen as a direct challenge to Roman authority.
• The Temple cleansing incident (flipping the money changers’ tables) may have been viewed as an act of rebellion.

3. How Rabbinic Judaism Saw Jesus

• While Christianity views Jesus as the divine Messiah, Jewish tradition sees him differently:
  • As a teacher who deviated from the Torah.
  • As a figure whose followers misunderstood and later deified him.
  • As a false Messiah who failed to bring the expected redemption.
• Some later Jewish texts (like the Toldot Yeshu, a medieval anti-Christian polemic) contain alternative, often satirical, narratives about Jesus.
• The Talmudic passage in Sanhedrin 43a (which was censored for centuries due to Christian pressure) describes a figure named “Yeshu” who was executed for leading Jews astray, implying that Jewish authorities saw him as a false teacher rather than a legitimate spiritual leader.

Conclusion

• Some Jewish traditions suggest that Jesus misused mystical teachings like Kabbalah.
• From a historical perspective, Jesus was executed for sedition by the Romans, not for “blasphemy” under Jewish law.
• Rabbinic sources generally view Jesus as a false teacher or false messiah, but later Jewish polemical works added more mystical elements to his story.
• Judaism does not recognize a divine Messiah and maintains that the real Messiah must fulfill all messianic prophecies in one lifetime.

Would you like to explore more about these alternative Jewish narratives or how Jesus was viewed in historical Jewish sources?

How did messianic Judaism come about? Is this where jews believe in Jesus?

Yes, Messianic Judaism is a movement where Jewish people believe in Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah while still maintaining Jewish identity and practices. However, it is distinct from both mainstream Judaism and traditional Christianity.

Here’s how it developed:

1. Early Jewish Believers in Jesus (1st Century)

• In the 1st century CE, Jesus’ followers were mostly Jewish and did not see themselves as starting a new religion.
• They believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and continued practicing Jewish law (Torah, Sabbath, dietary laws).
• The Apostle Paul (a Jew himself) helped spread Jesus’ message to non-Jews (Gentiles), which led to the separation between Judaism and Christianity.

2. The Separation of Judaism and Christianity (2nd-4th Century)

• As more Gentiles converted, the church distanced itself from Jewish customs.
• By the 4th century, after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, Jewish followers of Jesus were largely marginalized.
• The Council of Nicaea (325 CE) and other church councils formalized Christian doctrines that differed from Judaism, such as the Trinity and the rejection of Jewish law.

3. The Birth of Modern Messianic Judaism (19th-20th Century)

Messianic Judaism as we know it today emerged in the 1800s and gained momentum in the 1960s-70s. It was influenced by:

• Christian missionary efforts to convert Jews.
• Jewish believers in Jesus who wanted to retain their Jewish identity.
• The rise of Evangelical Christianity, which supported Jewish Christians and Israel.

Key Developments:

• In the 19th century, some Jewish Christians tried to maintain Jewish traditions while believing in Jesus.
• In the 1960s-70s, Messianic Judaism became more organized, especially in the U.S. and Israel.
• Organizations like Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) were formed.

4. What Do Messianic Jews Believe?

Messianic Jews believe:

• Jesus (Yeshua) is the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
• The New Testament is part of Jewish scripture.
• Jewish believers should keep Jewish customs like Sabbath, kosher food, and biblical festivals.
• Salvation comes through faith in Jesus, similar to Christian doctrine.

Theological Differences from Mainstream Judaism:

• Judaism rejects Jesus as the Messiah because he did not fulfill messianic prophecies.
• Messianic Jews accept Jesus but still identify as Jews, which is controversial among traditional Jews.

5. Why Do Most Jews Reject Messianic Judaism?

• Jewish Identity: Judaism sees belief in Jesus as a Christian belief, not a Jewish one.
• Historical Persecution: Christianity historically persecuted Jews, making Jewish acceptance of Jesus difficult.
• Messianic Prophecies: The Messiah is expected to bring world peace, rebuild the Temple, and gather all Jews to Israel—Jesus did not fulfill these.
• Christian Influence: Many Messianic Jewish groups receive funding from evangelical Christians, leading to accusations that it’s just Christianity with a Jewish façade.

6. Is Messianic Judaism Christianity?

• From a Christian perspective: Many evangelicals support Messianic Jews, seeing them as “completed Jews” who accept Jesus.
• From a Jewish perspective: Messianic Judaism is often viewed as a form of Christianity, not authentic Judaism.
• From a historical perspective: Messianic Judaism blends Jewish traditions with Christian theology, making it unique.

7. Messianic Judaism Today

• The movement has grown, especially in the U.S. and Israel.
• Many Messianic Jews worship in Messianic synagogues, where they blend Jewish prayers with belief in Jesus.
• The Israeli government does not recognize Messianic Jews as Jewish under the Law of Return.

Conclusion

• Messianic Judaism developed as a way for Jews to believe in Jesus while keeping Jewish traditions.
• It emerged in the 19th-20th centuries but has roots in early Jewish Christianity.
• It is not accepted by mainstream Judaism, which sees it as a form of Christianity.
• It remains a controversial movement, with support from evangelicals but rejection from Jewish communities.

Would you like to explore any specific aspect further?

How do messianic jews reconcile the Orthodox Jewish claims that Jesus isn’t the messiah?

Messianic Jews attempt to reconcile Orthodox Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah by reinterpreting Jewish messianic expectations and offering counterarguments to traditional Jewish theology.

Below are the main Orthodox Jewish objections and how Messianic Jews respond:

1. Jesus Didn’t Fulfill Messianic Prophecies

Jewish Objection:

• The Messiah must bring world peace (Isaiah 2:4), gather all Jews to Israel (Isaiah 11:12), rebuild the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), and spread universal knowledge of God (Zechariah 14:9).
• Jesus didn’t do these things, so he cannot be the Messiah.

Messianic Jewish Response:

• Two Comings of the Messiah: Messianic Jews argue that Jesus will fulfill these prophecies in his Second Coming. The first coming was to atone for sin; the second will bring world peace.
• Dual Messiah Concept: Some Jewish traditions (Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a) speak of two Messiahs:
  • Messiah ben Joseph (a suffering Messiah)
  • Messiah ben David (a ruling king)
  • Messianic Jews claim Jesus fulfilled the role of the suffering Messiah and will return as the ruling king.

2. The Messiah Must Be a Patrilineal Descendant of David

Jewish Objection:

• The Messiah must be from the direct male line of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-16).
• Jesus had no biological father, so he cannot be a descendant of David.
• Even if Joseph were his father, the genealogies in Matthew and Luke contradict each other.

Messianic Jewish Response:

• Adoptive Lineage Counts: Messianic Jews argue that in Jewish tradition, adoption can establish legal lineage, so Jesus being the legal son of Joseph still makes him a descendant of David.
• Mary’s Lineage: Some argue that Mary was also a descendant of David, meaning Jesus still has Davidic blood through his mother.
• Divine Fatherhood is the Ultimate Lineage: They claim that Jesus, as the “Son of God,” has a divine right to the throne of David, which supersedes earthly lineage.

3. Judaism Rejects a Divine Messiah

Jewish Objection:

• The Messiah is a human political leader, not God in the flesh.
• Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “God is One,” meaning God cannot become a man.
• Worshiping Jesus as divine is considered idolatry in Judaism.

Messianic Jewish Response:

• God Appeared in Human Form Before:
  • Messianic Jews cite Genesis 18, where God appears to Abraham in human form.
  • Exodus 33:11 states that Moses spoke to God “face to face.”
  • These, they argue, prove that God taking human form is possible.
• The “Angel of the Lord” as a Pre-Incarnation of Jesus:
  • In several places in the Hebrew Bible, the “Angel of the Lord” speaks as God (Genesis 22:11-12, Exodus 3:2-4).
  • Messianic Jews claim this is a pre-incarnation of Jesus.
• Isaiah 9:6 (“Mighty God”):
  • Messianic Jews argue that Isaiah 9:6, which calls the Messiah “Mighty God, Everlasting Father”, supports their view that Jesus is divine.

4. Judaism Teaches That Atonement Comes Through Repentance, Not Blood Sacrifice

Jewish Objection:

• Christianity teaches that Jesus’ death atones for sin, but Judaism says repentance (Teshuva), prayer, and good deeds atone for sins.
• The Temple sacrifices were only for unintentional sins, not all sins (Leviticus 4:2).
• Hosea 6:6 and 1 Samuel 15:22 say that God desires “mercy, not sacrifice.”

Messianic Jewish Response:

• The Torah Requires Blood for Atonement:
  • Leviticus 17:11 states: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls.”
  • Messianic Jews argue this proves that blood atonement is necessary for forgiveness.
• Isaiah 53 Describes Jesus’ Atoning Death:
  • Isaiah 53 speaks of a “suffering servant” who bears the sins of many.
  • Messianic Jews interpret this as a prophecy about Jesus’ crucifixion.
• Jesus is the Final Sacrifice:
  • They believe that after the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, God provided Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

5. Isaiah 53 is About Israel, Not Jesus

Jewish Objection:

• Jews interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to the nation of Israel, not the Messiah.
• The passage speaks of a “servant” who suffers for others, and Isaiah already calls Israel “My servant” (Isaiah 41:8, Isaiah 49:3).
• Historically, Jews have suffered for the sins of the nations, so Isaiah 53 fits Jewish exile and persecution, not Jesus.

Messianic Jewish Response:

• The Servant in Isaiah 53 is an Individual, Not a Nation:
  • Isaiah 53:5 says, “He was pierced for our transgressions,” which suggests an individual person rather than a nation.
  • Verse 9 states, “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,” which they claim fits Jesus’ burial.
• Ancient Jewish Sources Sometimes Applied Isaiah 53 to the Messiah:
  • The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b) speaks of the Messiah as a “Leper Scholar” who suffers for Israel’s sins.
  • Some Medieval rabbis (like Rashi) later reinterpreted Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel to refute Christian claims.

6. The Second Coming is Not a Jewish Concept

Jewish Objection:

• The Messiah is a one-time figure—he must fulfill all prophecies in his lifetime.
• There is no concept of a “Second Coming” in the Hebrew Bible.

Messianic Jewish Response:

• Some Prophecies Suggest a Delayed Fulfillment:
  • Zechariah 12:10 speaks of a time when Jews “will look upon the one they have pierced.”
  • Messianic Jews argue this means Jesus will return and be recognized by the Jewish people.
• Joseph’s Story as a Foreshadowing:
  • Messianic Jews compare Jesus to Joseph in Genesis:
    • Joseph was rejected by his brothers, then later revealed himself to them.
    • Similarly, they believe Jesus was first rejected by the Jews but will be recognized at his return.

Conclusion

Messianic Jews try to reconcile Orthodox Jewish objections by reinterpreting messianic prophecies, emphasizing Jesus’ role as the “suffering servant,” and claiming that his second coming will complete the messianic mission. However, Orthodox Jews reject these arguments, as Jewish tradition maintains that the Messiah must fulfill all prophecies in one lifetime and cannot be divine.